When is it a private aircraft pilot’s fault?

[HiloHawaiian]

I was flying my XSP in a legal area, 1/8 mile off the coast 10 miles south of Half Moon Bay, CA. Windy, low overcast, rough, loud ocean. I was on a protruding cliff, facing south, my back faced north. I was watching my XSP at 250-300’ fly back to me from about 1/2 mile south. Out of nowhere, a Robinson 2 seater helicopter comes flying along the coast from the north at about 300-400’. He sees my XSP and freaks, zoomed-up, then circled around to look for the perp (me). I came down fast, hit RTH. He kept circling as I got madder. I landed. He circled. I finally flipped him off and motioned him to land and discuss the situation, LOL. I knew he wouldn’t/couldn’t, but damn I was pissed. He was hot-rodding low down the coastal cliffs showing off for his girlfriend.

Isn’t this a lose/lose for the drone pilot? There’s no ground-based radar in the area, the FAA only responds to “tail numbers” when you complain. Trying reading one on a flying private plane or helicopter. I did have 2 witnesses if I needed them, but I know from fighting helicopters in Hawaii, they can do almost anything, legally, if they aren’t “endangering people or property”...

If anything happened, who would be blamed?

 

[xspwhite]

I guess it's the same as flying a kite or anything else. The FAA would investigate. If you weren't breaking any laws I dont see how all the blame would be placed your way. I think you would be better off finding out who the pilot is and having a civil discussion. From what you described it sounded more like a road rage kind of deal. It would be interesting to know how the FAA would classify a situation like that. I try to listen for helios and planes because we get some low flyers around here as well, so I also try to stay right above the treetops about 150/160 feet, but I have seen planes barrel right over the trees at about 160.

 

[Fly-a-holic]

When these type things happen like you stated, it's difficult to hold accountable, the person in the wrong. Unless you get someone from the FAA that is strictly "by the book" then they will probably believe the heli pilot over the drone pilot. Witnesses are a plus but I doubt it would ever get that far.

I had a comparable situation one time as my wife, daughter and I were riding PWCs with some friends. Headed back up the narrowing creek towards the boat ramp, I see this bass boat going 70+ mph straight for us. I move over to the right, he moves my direction. Kept going until he almost ran me on the bank. When I talked to the DNR they tell me that the fisherman have the right of way since they provide the most revenue. So, What do you do...? I know what to do next time. Lol

 

[HiloHawaiian]

I guess it's the same as flying a kite or anything else. The FAA would investigate. If you weren't breaking any laws I dont see how all the blame would be placed your way. I think you would be better off finding out who the pilot is and having a civil discussion. From what you described it sounded more like a road rage kind of deal. It would be interesting to know how the FAA would classify a situation like that. I try to listen for helios and planes because we get some low flyers around here as well, so I also try to stay right above the treetops about 150/160 feet, but I have seen planes barrel right over the trees at about 160.

I listen and watch for private aircraft as well. In those conditions it was hard to hear anything aside from the pounding surf & the wind. In a low gray sky, it’s easy to loose sight of your drone, which I was trying hard not to do. Looking behind me didn’t seem as important as maintaining line of. sight. No aircraft is supposed to “buzz” that low over coastal areas, there’s a bunch of nature preserves, state beaches, and a fancy hotel & golf course nearby. I was in an area in between them, the helo had to have passed over a state beach to be where he was........

 

[thomasr]

Helicopters have like an exemption built in -- as long as they are in compliance with §91.119 - Section A & D.
All other aircraft not mentioned in Section D have a waiver process.

Section A & D can not be waived.

My interpretation says unless they were on an FAA planned/prescribed route -- the pilot of the copter would be in the wrong.

Glad everyone is OK and no one really has to find out!

Even though the FAA has these regulations, finding someone that would care -- would be fruitless.


https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div8&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.2.4.10

91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.


FSIMS Document Viewer

CHAPTER 7 ISSUE A CERTIFICATE OF WAIVER OR AUTHORIZATION: § 91.119(B) AND/OR (C) (MINIMUM SAFE ALTITUDES)
Section 1 Issue a Certificate of Waiver or Authorization: § 91.119(b) and/or (c) (Minimum Safe Altitudes)
​

3-183 BACKGROUND.
A. Definitions.
1) Congested and Densely Populated Areas. See Volume 3, Chapter 51, Section 6.
2) Pipeline/Power Line Patrol. Operation of an aircraft in order to locate leaks or breaks in a pipeline or power line.
3) In the Public Interest. Operations conducted by Federal, state, and local governments; by private law enforcement operators; or for the purpose of conservation, wildlife preservation, or pipeline or power line patrols.

B. Authority. Part 91 provides for the issuance of a waiver of § 91.119(b) and/or (c). Part 91 also provides for the issuance of a waiver of § 91.313(e) if the applicant is to perform limited operations with restricted category aircraft. See Volume 3, Chapter 4.

C. Examples. Examples of waivers of § 91.119(b) and/or (c) are pipeline/power line patrol, low-level thermography flights, and flights by foreign operators under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).

D. Regulations That May Not Be Waived. Section 91.119(a) and (d) shall not be waived.
E. History of the Waiver. Except for a minor amendment to provide relief to recognize the unique capabilities of helicopters, minimum safe altitudes (MSA) have remained unchanged. These rules were specifically written to safeguard life and property on the surface, with the highest priority placed upon the protection of human life. The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) recognizes that certain operations justify waiving the 1,000-foot minimum over congested areas and/or 500-foot minimum separation distance from persons or property on the surface.

 

[Catweazle]

If your flight log shows data that puts you in the right, then you might be able to drop your sky rager in the ?

 

[Ansia]

Sorry you had to go through that experience. My understanding is, even if the helo was flying ilegally, he has right of way over any uas.

 

[xspwhite]

I think for obvious reasons, your suppose to do everything in your power to give way to manned aircraft. Supposedly, a helicopter can fly as low as it wants as long as it poses no danger to the ground, but a question would pose that if the copter is flying so low that it hits a drone or a kite, dosen't that pose risk to the ground?

Here's an article I just read:

Drone hits helicopter in Baja 500

www.google.com

 

[HiloHawaiian]

Sorry you had to go through that experience. My understanding is, even if the helo was flying ilegally, he has right of way over any uas.

That is my understanding as well. I had FAA inspectors come to my house twice on the Big Island, flying-in from Honolulu, solely to investigate the tourist helo invasion of the area. Professional, good guys...
Bottom line?
As the 2nd one was leaving, he said: “Don’t quote me, but rules for helicopters are very loose. Fixed wing? Lots of rules. The Helicopter Association International lobbyists keep the rules loose. A helo can legally fly at 50’ elevation down your street as long as they do not endanger people or property’...” My neighbor and I were astonished...

 

[HiloHawaiian]

I think for obvious reasons, your suppose to do everything in your power to give way to manned aircraft. Supposedly, a helicopter can fly as low as it wants as long as it poses no danger to the ground, but a question would pose that if the copter is flying so low that it hits a drone or a kite, dosen't that pose risk to the ground?

Here's an article I just read:

Drone hits helicopter in Baja 500

www.google.com

Yes, I know that to be true, “as long as they do not endanger people or property”. It’s insane, but unless you can out-lobby the HAI, it’s hopeless... And, just as the HAI tells them in their support literature, helo pilots always mention to the press how helo can save lives.
Apples and Oranges. We aren’t talking about emergency services helo’s, are we?

 

[Ansia]

Yes, I know that to be true, “as long as they do not endanger people or property”. It’s insane, but unless you can out-lobby the HAI, it’s hopeless... And, just as the HAI tells them in their support literature, helo pilots always mention to the press how helo can save lives.
Apples and Oranges. We aren’t talking about emergency services helo’s, are we?

Then if they are going to enforce more regulations into UAS, I say the enforce more regulations into helos as well. If not, things like the Baja helo will keep occuring.

 

[xspwhite]

I just noticed that people on the kite flying forums are having the same discussions. I got a little chuckle the other day as I was driving down the road and heading toward a bridge that crosses a freeway which is right in front of a little private airport. It was cold windy and snowing, but as I looked to the left side of the road, there was a trio of people launching a small kite.. LOL..

 

[UnRanged]

You saw the craft and took appropriate action as quickly as you could. He's going to cry victim to whoever will listen... HE endangered his craft and his passengers when he circled an area that he knew had a drone in it...Could have been two or more for all he knew. The finger you gave him is all he'll get. But I doubt he'll make a report since what he did was a reckless response to an incident that was avoided and yet he circled back into the area to conduct his own investigation? Yeah, tough call. But you did the right thing... You could call the locals and ask about it for your friend SWIM... (Someone Who Isn't Me) and see what they say.

 

[Fly-a-holic]

A helo can legally fly at 50’ elevation down your street as long as they do not endanger people or property’

The FAA also states that an aircraft can have a fuel leak and still be legal to fly. The good ole FAA...

 

[Ansia]

You must understand, drones are the millenials of aviation. Hated by all previous generations.

 

[HiloHawaiian]

The FAA also states that an aircraft can have a fuel leak and still be legal to fly. The good ole FAA...

LOL, oh yea, I once flew from Johnson Atoll to Kwajalein on an old Air America 727 that had a tiny fuel leak, it stained the wing. I found out after we landed on Kwaj...

 

[Fly-a-holic]

LOL, oh yea, I once flew from Johnson Atoll to Kwajalein on an old Air America 727 that had a tiny fuel leak, it stained the wing. I found out after we landed on Kwaj...

yeah, I forget what the rate is but as long as it's drips are so may seconds apart, You're good to go! One my friends was saying that the wind would keep the fire put out...Lol I don't think that was in the book but I really don't find it hard to believe.

 

[HiloHawaiian]

yeah, I forget what the rate is but as long as it's drips are so may seconds apart, You're good to go! One my friends was saying that the wind would keep the fire put out...Lol I don't think that was in the book but I really don't find it hard to believe.

Yea....... We couldn’t get off the plane at Johnson, it was a quick stop for some poor airman assigned to this god forsaken coral blip. I remember watching a guy with a rag rubbing a small long stain on the 727’s wing. He rubbed, looked at the rag, looked at the pilot. It was an old plane, but it had 3 engines, so it was good-to-go for long open-ocean flights. This was before ETOPS 737’s took over the island-hopper route that now skips Johnson Atoll...

 

[Vagabond]

I was flying my XSP in a legal area, 1/8 mile off the coast 10 miles south of Half Moon Bay, CA. Windy, low overcast, rough, loud ocean. I was on a protruding cliff, facing south, my back faced north. I was watching my XSP at 250-300’ fly back to me from about 1/2 mile south. Out of nowhere, a Robinson 2 seater helicopter comes flying along the coast from the north at about 300-400’. He sees my XSP and freaks, zoomed-up, then circled around to look for the perp (me). I came down fast, hit RTH. He kept circling as I got madder. I landed. He circled. I finally flipped him off and motioned him to land and discuss the situation, LOL. I knew he wouldn’t/couldn’t, but damn I was pissed. He was hot-rodding low down the coastal cliffs showing off for his girlfriend.

Isn’t this a lose/lose for the drone pilot? There’s no ground-based radar in the area, the FAA only responds to “tail numbers” when you complain. Trying reading one on a flying private plane or helicopter. I did have 2 witnesses if I needed them, but I know from fighting helicopters in Hawaii, they can do almost anything, legally, if they aren’t “endangering people or property”...

If anything happened, who would be blamed?

Under these circumstances, it would always be the drone operators fault. Always.

 

[mixchief]

I was flying my XSP in a legal area, 1/8 mile off the coast 10 miles south of Half Moon Bay, CA. Windy, low overcast, rough, loud ocean. I was on a protruding cliff, facing south, my back faced north. I was watching my XSP at 250-300’ fly back to me from about 1/2 mile south. Out of nowhere, a Robinson 2 seater helicopter comes flying along the coast from the north at about 300-400’. He sees my XSP and freaks, zoomed-up, then circled around to look for the perp (me). I came down fast, hit RTH. He kept circling as I got madder. I landed. He circled. I finally flipped him off and motioned him to land and discuss the situation, LOL. I knew he wouldn’t/couldn’t, but damn I was pissed. He was hot-rodding low down the coastal cliffs showing off for his girlfriend.

Isn’t this a lose/lose for the drone pilot? There’s no ground-based radar in the area, the FAA only responds to “tail numbers” when you complain. Trying reading one on a flying private plane or helicopter. I did have 2 witnesses if I needed them, but I know from fighting helicopters in Hawaii, they can do almost anything, legally, if they aren’t “endangering people or property”...

If anything happened, who would be blamed?

Keep in mind that Helicopters do not abide by the same rules as UAVs and for that matter fixed wing aircraft, they pretty much fly where and when they want, had there been a collision surely the UAV will be found at fault for not yielding to the maned aircraft. I had a very close call with an amphibious plane who came in for a landing on the bay over the park where I was flying where he was at 200 ft or so quickly depending to 100 where I was and flew maybe 50 yards from me, unfortunately I couldn't react fast enough to catch it on video as it blew by me as I was turned in the oposite direction and I only caught him as he was touching down. That is common behavior for these pilots, mind you area was not flagged by DJI (my buddy was flying a mavic) as a no fly or even a warning zone.